Thread Subject: MATLAB Student Version R2008a?

Folks,

I suppose that this question should be directed at
MathWorks Sales, but I suspect that a lowly student such as
myself would be unlikely to get a timely response.

It seems that MATLAB R2008a was released on March 1...

http://www.mathworks.com/products/new_products/lates
t_features.html?s_cid=HP_RH_2008a

But the MATLAB Student Version remains at R2007a...

http://www.mathworks.com/academia/student_version

I am impatiently waiting to dig into the new features, most
particularly object orient programming.

Does anyone know when MATLAB Student Version R2008a will be
released?

A follow on... Having just paid $100 for the R2007a, does
anyone know if an upgrade to R2008a will be available?

Kind regards,

Hui

I am the product manager for Student Version here at The MathWorks. We
recognize that most of our users first encounter MATLAB while studying at
their university, and we are always interested in hearing from students
about their experience and suggestions for Student Version.

Historically Student Version releases have lagged behind our professional
releases by several months. While we are working hard to synchronize the
release cycles to a greater degree for future releases, there is no Student
Version release planned for R2008a.

As for upgrades, we do not currently offer an upgrade path for Student
Version, so you would need to purchase a new copy when the new release is
available. However, recently we have begun to explore student preferences
for new license and package configurations that may enable us to offer new
solutions in the future. If you would like voice your opinion by
participating in a student purchase preference survey that we are planning
for the next few weeks, please reply to me at my MathWorks account (below)..

Thanks for your interest in MATLAB & Simulink Student Version.

Pete Janzow
Student Version Product Manager
pjanzow@mathworks.com



"Hui " <hui@notlikely.com> wrote in message
news:fqohrl$27p$1@fred.mathworks.com...
> Folks,
>
> I suppose that this question should be directed at
> MathWorks Sales, but I suspect that a lowly student such as
> myself would be unlikely to get a timely response.
>
> It seems that MATLAB R2008a was released on March 1...
>
> http://www.mathworks.com/products/new_products/lates
> t_features.html?s_cid=HP_RH_2008a
>
> But the MATLAB Student Version remains at R2007a...
>
> http://www.mathworks.com/academia/student_version
>
> I am impatiently waiting to dig into the new features, most
> particularly object orient programming.
>
> Does anyone know when MATLAB Student Version R2008a will be
> released?
>
> A follow on... Having just paid $100 for the R2007a, does
> anyone know if an upgrade to R2008a will be available?
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Hui
>

Hi Pete,

Thank you for your exceptionally fast response to my
question. Unfortunately, I am not at all impressed with the
MathWorks response!

If MathWorks actually does “recognize that most of [their]
users first encounter MATLAB while studying at their
university”, why does the company continue to treat those
student customers (which grow up to be professional
customers) with such shameless contempt?

It is bad enough to read your statement that, “Historically
Student Version releases have lagged behind our
professional releases by several months” (for no apparent
reason other than to penalise students for not having paid
the full professional / astronomical price of between 19
and 133 times more that the student price, see below). But
to then read that, "there is no Student Version release
planned for R2008a", I am completely overwhelmed with a
feeling of despair.

This is not a minor upgrade! It is MATLAB meets object
oriented programming! Who better to explore the new realms
of MATLAB’s programming prowess than students?

Frankly, I am speechless with rage. How can I possibly
respond to this ridiculous policy put together on the back
of a napkin by the (not so) brilliant minds of MathWorks
marketing management?

I’ll start off with this... Rather than “voicing [my]
opinion by participating in a student purchase preference
survey”, I’ll tell you exactly how I feel, right here,
right now, in public.

I have purchased Wolfram Mathematica 6.0 for Students at a
cost of $139.95. For an additional cost of $67.50 per year
I get Student Premier Service which, among many other
benefits, includes automatic upgrades to the latest product
release the moment it becomes available. Next year I get
10% of my Premier Service and, for the rest of my student
career, these benefits continue.

http://www.wolfram.com/products/service/benefits/studentbene
fits.html

It isn’t hard to imagine where my loyalty is drifting, nor
what I will likely recommend to my employer when I grow up.
I’ll let you know how I get on.

Kind regards,

Hui

PS. MATLAB? & Simulink Student Version R2007a includes:

MATLAB $1,900
Simulink 3,000
Control System Toolbox 1,000
Signal Processing Toolbox 800
Signal Processing Blockset 1,000
Statistics Toolbox 1,000
Optimization Toolbox 1,000
Image Processing Toolbox 1,000
Symbolic Math Toolbox 600
                             $13,300


"Pete Janzow" <pjanzow@mathworks.com> wrote in message
<fqou9r$p4v$1@fred.mathworks.com>...
> I am the product manager for Student Version here at The
MathWorks. We
> recognize that most of our users first encounter MATLAB
while studying at
> their university, and we are always interested in hearing
from students
> about their experience and suggestions for Student
Version.
>
> Historically Student Version releases have lagged behind
our professional
> releases by several months. While we are working hard to
synchronize the
> release cycles to a greater degree for future releases,
there is no Student
> Version release planned for R2008a.
>
> As for upgrades, we do not currently offer an upgrade
path for Student
> Version, so you would need to purchase a new copy when
the new release is
> available. However, recently we have begun to explore
student preferences
> for new license and package configurations that may
enable us to offer new
> solutions in the future. If you would like voice your
opinion by
> participating in a student purchase preference survey
that we are planning
> for the next few weeks, please reply to me at my
MathWorks account (below)..
>
> Thanks for your interest in MATLAB & Simulink Student
Version.
>
> Pete Janzow
> Student Version Product Manager
> pjanzow@mathworks.com

"Hui ":
<SNIP on TMW's policy for ML's student's edition...

having used ML since 1986 - and having taught ML for and
thereby inspired literally thousands(!) of students for two
decades+ - i completely agree with and second the OP's
(call it: crassly worded) opinion in frustration...

TMW - you MUST do better with our <pets of the family> - or
many advisers will continue to - accidentally and
haphazardly(?) - leave the institutes PLP on their desks...
(which - you know quite well - is what happens (guess-
work:) 10x/license...)

us

"us " <us@neurol.unizh.ch> wrote in message
<fqstuq$dfb$1@fred.mathworks.com>...
> "Hui ":
> <SNIP on TMW's policy for ML's student's edition...
>
> having used ML since 1986 - and having taught ML for and
> thereby inspired literally thousands(!) of students for two
> decades+ - i completely agree with and second the OP's

I agree completely. I teach courses in which Matlab is an
essential numerical and programming tool to about 250
engineering students per year. TMW shouldn't treat the
students as second-class customers. That is unbelievably
shortsighted.

Petr Krysl

"us " <us@neurol.unizh.ch> wrote in message
<fqstuq$dfb$1@fred.mathworks.com>...
> "Hui ":
> <SNIP on TMW's policy for ML's student's edition...
>
> having used ML since 1986 - and having taught ML for and
> thereby inspired literally thousands(!) of students for two
> decades+ - i completely agree with and second the OP's

I agree completely. I teach courses in which Matlab is an
essential numerical and programming tool to about 250
engineering students per year. These are the people to
impress with new features and improved usability! TMW
shouldn't treat the students as second-class customers.
That is unbelievably shortsighted.

Petr Krysl

"us " <us@neurol.unizh.ch> wrote in message
<fqstuq$dfb$1@fred.mathworks.com>...
> "Hui ":
> <SNIP on TMW's policy for ML's student's edition...
>
> having used ML since 1986 - and having taught ML for and
> thereby inspired literally thousands(!) of students for two
> decades+ - i completely agree with and second the OP's

I agree completely. I teach courses in which Matlab is an
essential numerical and programming tool to about 250
engineering students per year. These are the people to
impressed with new features and improved usability. TMW
shouldn't treat the students as second-class customers.
That is unbelievably shortsighted.

Petr Krysl

"us " <us@neurol.unizh.ch> wrote in message
<fqstuq$dfb$1@fred.mathworks.com>...
> "Hui ":
> <SNIP on TMW's policy for ML's student's edition...
>
> having used ML since 1986 - and having taught ML for and
> thereby inspired literally thousands(!) of students for two
> decades+ - i completely agree with and second the OP's

I agree completely. I teach courses in which Matlab is an
essential numerical and programming tool to about 250
engineering students per year. TMW shouldn't treat the
students as second-class customers. That is unbelievably
shortsighted.

Petr Krysl

"us " <us@neurol.unizh.ch> wrote in message
<fqstuq$dfb$1@fred.mathworks.com>...
> "Hui ":
> <SNIP on TMW's policy for ML's student's edition...
>
> having used ML since 1986 - and having taught ML for and
> thereby inspired literally thousands(!) of students for two
> decades+ - i completely agree with and second the OP's

I agree completely. I teach courses in which Matlab is an
essential numerical and programming tool to about 250
engineering students per year. These are the people to
impress with new features and improved usability! TMW
shouldn't treat the students as second-class customers.
That is unbelievably shortsighted.

Petr Krysl

"us " <us@neurol.unizh.ch> wrote in message
<fqstuq$dfb$1@fred.mathworks.com>...
> "Hui ":
> <SNIP on TMW's policy for ML's student's edition...
>
> having used ML since 1986 - and having taught ML for and
> thereby inspired literally thousands(!) of students for two
> decades+ - i completely agree with and second the OP's

I agree completely. I teach courses in which Matlab is an
essential numerical and programming tool to about 250
engineering students per year. TMW shouldn't treat the
students as second-class customers. That is unbelievably
shortsighted.

Petr Krysl

"us " <us@neurol.unizh.ch> wrote in message
<fqstuq$dfb$1@fred.mathworks.com>...
> "Hui ":
> <SNIP on TMW's policy for ML's student's edition...
>
> having used ML since 1986 - and having taught ML for and
> thereby inspired literally thousands(!) of students for two
> decades+ - i completely agree with and second the OP's

I agree completely. I teach courses in which Matlab is an
essential numerical and programming tool to about 250
engineering students per year. TMW shouldn't treat the
students as second-class customers. That is unbelievably
shortsighted.

Petr Krysl

"us " <us@neurol.unizh.ch> wrote in message
<fqstuq$dfb$1@fred.mathworks.com>...
> "Hui ":
> <SNIP on TMW's policy for ML's student's edition...
>
> having used ML since 1986 - and having taught ML for and
> thereby inspired literally thousands(!) of students for two
> decades+ - i completely agree with and second the OP's

I agree completely. I teach courses in which Matlab is an
essential numerical and programming tool to about 250
engineering students per year. These are the people to
impressed with new features and improved usability. TMW
shouldn't treat the students as second-class customers.
That is unbelievably shortsighted.

Petr Krysl

"us " <us@neurol.unizh.ch> wrote in message
<fqstuq$dfb$1@fred.mathworks.com>...
> "Hui ":
> <SNIP on TMW's policy for ML's student's edition...
>
> having used ML since 1986 - and having taught ML for and
> thereby inspired literally thousands(!) of students for two
> decades+ - i completely agree with and second the OP's

I agree completely. I teach courses in which Matlab is an
essential numerical and programming tool to about 250
engineering students per year. These are the people to
impress with new features and improved usability! TMW
shouldn't treat the students as second-class customers.
That is unbelievably shortsighted.

Petr Krysl

"us " <us@neurol.unizh.ch> wrote in message
<fqstuq$dfb$1@fred.mathworks.com>...
> "Hui ":
> <SNIP on TMW's policy for ML's student's edition...
>
> having used ML since 1986 - and having taught ML for and
> thereby inspired literally thousands(!) of students for two
> decades+ - i completely agree with and second the OP's

I agree completely. I teach courses in which Matlab is an
essential numerical and programming tool to about 250
engineering students per year. These are the people to
impressed with new features and improved usability. TMW
shouldn't treat the students as second-class customers.
That is unbelievably shortsighted.

Petr Krysl

"us " <us@neurol.unizh.ch> wrote in message
<fqstuq$dfb$1@fred.mathworks.com>...
> "Hui ":
> <SNIP on TMW's policy for ML's student's edition...
>
> having used ML since 1986 - and having taught ML for and
> thereby inspired literally thousands(!) of students for two
> decades+ - i completely agree with and second the OP's

I agree completely. I teach courses in which Matlab is an
essential numerical and programming tool to about 250
engineering students per year. These are the people to
impressed with new features and improved usability. TMW
shouldn't treat the students as second-class customers.
That is unbelievably shortsighted.

Petr Krysl

"us " <us@neurol.unizh.ch> wrote in message
<fqstuq$dfb$1@fred.mathworks.com>...
> "Hui ":
> <SNIP on TMW's policy for ML's student's edition...
>
> having used ML since 1986 - and having taught ML for and
> thereby inspired literally thousands(!) of students for two
> decades+ - i completely agree with and second the OP's

I agree completely. I teach courses in which Matlab is an
essential numerical and programming tool to about 250
engineering students per year. These are the people to
impress with new features and improved usability! TMW
shouldn't treat the students as second-class customers.
That is unbelievably shortsighted.

Petr Krysl

"Petr Krysl":
<SNIP professional wisdom...

> I teach courses in which Matlab is an
> essential numerical and programming tool to about 250
> engineering students per year. These are the people to
> impress with new features and improved usability! TMW
> shouldn't treat the students as second-class customers.
> That is unbelievably shortsighted...

thank you very much <petr> for this most vociferous,
unambiguous, and relentless support of <us> pedestrian ML
fiends...
TMW - you are not deaf, of course - are you...
by the way, i'm pretty sure <cleve> is on our side...

us with a - call it - :-)

"us " <us@neurol.unizh.ch> wrote in message
<fqt19m$e61$1@fred.mathworks.com>...
> "Petr Krysl":
> <SNIP professional wisdom...
>

> thank you very much <petr> for this most vociferous,
> unambiguous, and relentless support of <us> pedestrian ML


While my support of the stance of the first two posters is
vociferous, unambiguous and relentless, my intention was not
to repeatedly post the same message. Sorry. (Unintentional
reloading of webpages.) <sheepish grin>

Petr

us wrote:
> "Hui ":
> <SNIP on TMW's policy for ML's student's edition...
>
> having used ML since 1986 - and having taught ML for and
> thereby inspired literally thousands(!) of students for two
> decades+ - i completely agree with and second the OP's
> (call it: crassly worded) opinion in frustration...
>
> TMW - you MUST do better with our <pets of the family> - or
> many advisers will continue to - accidentally and
> haphazardly(?) - leave the institutes PLP on their desks...
> (which - you know quite well - is what happens (guess-
> work:) 10x/license...)
>
> us

Maybe it's the right time to become more independant ...
... switch to open source ?

cheers,
Stef Mientki

Hui wrote on 07-Mar-08 18:01 :
[...]
>
> If MathWorks actually does “recognize that most of [their]
> users first encounter MATLAB while studying at their
> university”, why does the company continue to treat those
> student customers (which grow up to be professional
> customers) with such shameless contempt?

So you believe that student's purchase of a 'lite' version, at a discounted or introductory price, should somehow automatically
elevate their status above that of full-pay, professional customers? Exactly how is that supposed to work in the real world?

> It is bad enough to read your statement that, “Historically
> Student Version releases have lagged behind our
> professional releases by several months” (for no apparent
> reason other than to penalise students for not having paid
> the full professional / astronomical price

The OP stated fact, not reason or justification. Petulance and assertion do not create fact -- exactly how do you know TMW
necessarily seek to penalize students?

You're in an institution that compels students to buy Matlab? Who made that choice for you?

> I am completely overwhelmed with a
> feeling of despair.

"I wept, because I had no shoes. Then I met a man who had no feet."

You're in the wrong newsgroup. You should try alt.LifesToughOnStudents.whine.whine.whine

"D. Ismay"
<nospam@WooHoo.WooHooHoo.WooHoo.WooHooHoo.HOOHOO.hoohoo.WooHoo.WooHooHoo>
wrote in message news:13t5er6ckgv6s68@corp.supernews.com...

>
> exactly how do you know TMW necessarily seek to penalize students?
>

TMW does not penalize students. However, some people forget that there is
now Mathematica out there which pretty much does everything that Matlab does
(and many of the functions that one needs a toolbox to access in Matlab,
comes pre-installed as standard in Mathematica), with the only difference is
that with Mathematica there is no student and non-student version. There is
only ONE Mathematica, but if you are a student, you can buy it at a student
price on the same day it comes out. The student price of Matlab and
Mathematica is pretty much the same.

This is the difference. I can buy Mathematica latest version the day it
comes out at a student price since I am a student, and do not have to wait
for more than a year before as the case with matlab waiting for TMW to give
me the privilege to buy its latest products as a student.

It is clear there is no technical reason at all TMW have to hold its product
for a year before allowing the students the honor of using the latest Matlab
version. It is just all marketing and dollar driven. TMW is just being short
sighted in its actions towards students. It always has. They do not see that
as more students move to other software (such as Mathematica and others
which treat students with more respect), Matlab will slowly lose users with
time.

Nasser

From my reading D. Ismay’s post, I suspect that he concurs
with my original self-positioning as a “lowly student” (see
the first message in this topic).

Regardless, I don’t recall suggesting that students “should
somehow automatically elevate their status above that of
full-pay, professional customers”. Undoubtedly, it is the
customers from industry, which derive high commercial value
from their use of MATLAB, that rightfully expect and demand
a superior level of *personal* service and support, and
they are willing to pay a premium price for it. Inevitably,
it is these profitable customers which lend MathWorks the
ability to offer academia a product which has high
intellectual value at a price which is affordable by
students and department budgets.

I have also failed to find an official MathWorks example of
D. Ismay’s assertion that the MATLAB Student Version
is “lite”. Certainly, the “MATLAB & Simulink Student
Version fact sheet” at
http://www.mathworks.com/academia/student_version/techkit_co
nf.html makes no mention of any inherent limitation. But,
of course, there actually are limitations. Only a subset of
the MathWorks add-on products (those deemed to be as
suitable for academic use) are available for the Student
Version. If you wish to interface MATLAB to the outside
world, you can either forget it or buy the full industrial
version of everything. (see note 1 at end)

I guess what got D. Ismay’s goat was my “petulant” whining
and [unsubstantiated] assertions, which were both lacking
in “reason [and] justification”. Perhaps so. Should I have
been submitting a paper Logic 101, I would not have
expected a good grade.

I prefer to think of my previous message as an impassioned
plea to MathWorks for the fair treatment of students and
academia in general. As Nasser Abbasi so clearly describes
is his recent post to this topic (discovered while I write
this response), there are other serious software options to
consider. Wolfram Research offers academia a suitably
priced (and arguably superior) product which is both
identical in function to the industrial version and almost
identical in the support and service provided.

I suspect that MathWorks, comfortable with its dominance of
a number of academic disciplines, lacks the motivation to
look deeply into desires and expectations of this market.
We all know of another very large software firm with a
monopoly on certain market segments which has been accused
of a similar casual arrogance.

It’s sad, really. The provision of “e” support and service
(instant software updates, etc.) is extremely cheap, yet
still quite acceptable to students and most facility. How
can MathWorks find itself so very much behind the
competition in this regard?

I will conclude by saying that I have travelled through
feelings of denial (it can’t be true), dismay (no R2008a!)
and rage (I’ve wasted my money). But there will be no
further “weeping or whining” from me.

Kind regards,

Hui

1. Wolfram Research provides standard libraries, plus
extensive documentation and samples, for interfacing
Mathematica to the outside world, whether your preference
is C++, Java or .NET. And, yes, this is included with
the “for Students” version.

"Nasser Abbasi" <nma@12000.org> wrote in message
<EuCAj.8247$Mh2.3681@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com>...
>
> It is clear there is no technical reason at all TMW have
to hold its product
> for a year before allowing the students the honor of using
the latest Matlab
> version.

From 2008a yes there is: it's called ACTIVATION.

Bruno

Hui wrote on 08-Mar-08 16:04 :
[...]
>
> Regardless, I don’t recall suggesting that students “should
> somehow automatically elevate their status above that of
> full-pay, professional customers”.

Claims of "temporary amnesia" will not serve you. Stop whining about your situation.

> I prefer to think of my previous message as an impassioned
> plea to MathWorks for the fair treatment of students and
> academia in general.

"Logic 101" -- You claim that TMW are, somehow, not fair to students.
Prove it.

> I suspect that MathWorks, comfortable with its dominance of
> a number of academic disciplines, lacks the motivation

Suspicion != fact.
Care to offer some lessons in "Logic 101" for the benefit of the studio audience?

[...] How
> can MathWorks find itself so very much behind the
> competition in this regard?

Non-sequitur. Also, assertion != fact.
Care to refute this?

[...] But there will be no
> further “weeping or whining” from me.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
The fact that you posted here, once again, belies that assertion, does it not?

Nasser Abbasi wrote on 08-Mar-08 12:16 :
> "D. Ismay"
> <nospam@WooHoo.WooHooHoo.WooHoo.WooHooHoo.HOOHOO.hoohoo.WooHoo.WooHooHoo>
> wrote in message news:13t5er6ckgv6s68@corp.supernews.com...
>
>> exactly how do you know TMW necessarily seek to penalize students?
>>
>
> TMW does not penalize students.

Tell that to 'weeping Hui'.

> It is clear there is no technical reason at all TMW have to hold its product
> for a year before allowing the students

Who said there was?

<pointless rant redacted>

> I have also failed to find an official MathWorks example of
> D. Ismay’s assertion that the MATLAB Student Version
> is “lite”. Certainly, the “MATLAB & Simulink Student
> Version fact sheet” at
> http://www.mathworks.com/academia/student_version/techkit_co
> nf.html makes no mention of any inherent limitation. But,
> of course, there actually are limitations. Only a subset of
> the MathWorks add-on products (those deemed to be as
> suitable for academic use) are available for the Student
> Version. If you wish to interface MATLAB to the outside
> world, you can either forget it or buy the full industrial
> version of everything. (see note 1 at end)

I am another student (EE doctoral candidate) who just bought
the 2007a student version without realizing that 2008a had
just been released.

As for limitations in the student version, it appears that
64-bit support is reserved for the full-price product as
well. With 4GB (or more) of RAM available for a lower price
than even the student version of MatLab this seems a little
silly.

I suggest that MatLab ought to make the new version
available at cost (send us just a new DVD with the update
for $12 to cover manufacture and shipping) to anyone who
bought the student version after the release data for 2008a.
 That would be fair. Since I seem to recall that 2007a was
advertised as the current version during the ordering
process, it might even be required.

Hello,

I was looking forward to the 2008a release student edition, specifically as its
OOP (finally), and Hui's post is my exact question.

I am surprised about Mathworks response and disagree; it's not a good idea
to provide reasons to move away from your product, especially at this
important transition in Matlab's history of code.

But, for $100, I cant complain that much....except that I can program with
other languages for free, and those are OOP.

IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN CONTINUING USING MATLAB AND OOP, then there
is a band-aid (for a potential flesh-wound) i.e a book published called:

"A Guide to Object-Oriented Programming in Matlab" by Andy Register

for about $63 on amazon, which isnt too bad considering for a total $163 you
get to use OOP concepts.

Not to promote this book, but its realy really good. I had problems after
reading Matlab's OOP tutorial, but this book cleared things up and does a
very slow stepwise process; chapter 4 is by far the most dense and difficult
(im a biologist), but i got through it with time...it was well worth it

Obviously, the 2008a version is "another level", as it appears that there are
new reserved words like "properties", etc...

Regardless, this book is good to understand OOP with example code and a
class wizard, to make code stubs. I cant express how helpful it was, as it
explains some of Matlab's idiosyncrasies when dealing with functions in
Matlab.

Unfortunately, the class wizard is p-code, but the rest of the code on the CD
is m-file.

Overall, it appears this is the current (and potentially permanent) solution for
OOP for students using 2007a like myself.

http://www.amazon.com/Guide-MATLAB-Object-Oriented-
Programming/dp/158488911X/ref=sr_1_1?
ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209240733&sr=8-1

Hopefully you find this helpful. I will continue to use Matlab as a prototyping
language, but with this discussion, I will push faster to migrate to python or
c++, as they are truely OOP.

Regards,
Joseph

"Hui " <hui@notlikely.com> wrote in message
<fqohrl$27p$1@fred.mathworks.com>...
> Folks,
>
> I suppose that this question should be directed at
> MathWorks Sales, but I suspect that a lowly student such as
> myself would be unlikely to get a timely response.
>
> It seems that MATLAB R2008a was released on March 1...
>
> http://www.mathworks.com/products/new_products/lates
> t_features.html?s_cid=HP_RH_2008a
>
> But the MATLAB Student Version remains at R2007a...
>
> http://www.mathworks.com/academia/student_version
>
> I am impatiently waiting to dig into the new features, most
> particularly object orient programming.
>
> Does anyone know when MATLAB Student Version R2008a will be
> released?
>
> A follow on... Having just paid $100 for the R2007a, does
> anyone know if an upgrade to R2008a will be available?
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Hui
>

In article <fqss0u$p3o$1@fred.mathworks.com>, Hui <hui@notlikely.com> wrote:
>Historically
>Student Version releases have lagged behind our
>professional releases by several months (for no apparent
>reason other than to penalise students for not having paid
>the full professional / astronomical price of between 19
>and 133 times more that the student price, see below).

*If* that is Mathwork's reason (and I have no information as to their
reasoning), then I, for one, would consider it sufficient. My
workplace is about to commit approximately another $50,000 to purchase
Matlab licenses. Internal politics make it a bit difficult for me to
know our existing license count, but I know from what I am personally
able to track that my sub-department have already purchased more than
$75,000 worth of licenses and maintenance. For the difference compared
to the student license pricing (which includes toolboxes that we could
use but cannot afford), we could have hired someone for a couple of
years... perhaps even you.

I personally have had to cope with shortages in manpower, and with
having to work around unavailable toolboxes -- both of which would have
been eased if we had only had to pay student prices instead of regular
price.

We are paying full price for Mathworks products, rather than an amazing
discount, and doing so has had measureable impact on our work. Do we
expect some kind of premium value from Mathworks relative to that
deeply discounted product? Frankly, *Yes*. If you were the one
paying, wouldn't you, too?


If you need an "apparent reason" for Mathworks to delay the student
product, then I can provide one. I work for a government, and it is
standard language of *every* government contract that the supplier not
charge us any more than they charge their "best customer" for an
equivilent product. This is a -law- in my country, so if Mathworks
wants to sell their product to the level of government that I work for,
they -must- abide by that pricing rule. If Mathworks were to
consistantly release the student version with all those toolboxes
simultaneously and with the same capabilities as their full-priced
version, then we *would* force them to charge us only at the student
rate. Not because we are nasty or greedy but because the laws would
require us to do so -- we are absolutely prohibitted from "playing
favorites" by permitting one vendor to charge us more than their "best
price" but requiring that other vendors charge us only their "best
price". Thus, if Mathworks wishes to put out a discounted version, they
are pretty much financially forced to make the discounted version
somehow meaningfully restricted -- such as putting it out late or
without full features. Mathworks does a -lot- of government business.


>But to then read that, "there is no Student Version release
>planned for R2008a", I am completely overwhelmed with a
>feeling of despair.

My sub-department is a research group that specializes in "non-invasive
diagnostic techniques". Which is to say that we are trying our best to
find fast, accurate ways to figure out if you have any of several
illnesses -without- cutting you open. For example, we can detect some
kinds of cancer (and how advanced they are) from a 15 minute test on
urine samples, instead of requiring lots of blood work and ultrasound
and CAT scans and several biopsies. Some of our spin-off companies
specialize in assuring that if you go in for a cancer operation that
*all* of the cancer is cut out, or that if you have a heart operation
that *every* blood vessel is properly connected up and the blood
flowing well *while you are still on the table*. (I'm not sure the
extent to which I can mention other major successes we have had.)


My father, father-in-law, and both of my grandmothers died of cancer,
and some of my friends have cancer now; one of my grandfathers died of
stroke. My next-door neighbour has major heart problems, and my best
friend will need a heart operation in a few years. Who do -you- know
that has died from cancer, heart disease or suffered greatly from
stroke? My sub-department works hard on detection and treatment of the
top three causes of (non-accidental) death, and works hard on other
topics such as the best ways to control epidemics.

Are your feelings of "despair" and "rage" that you might have to wait 6
months to get the latest MATLAB software version more valuable to you
than the work of our group (and other medical research groups
worldwide) to detect health problems quickly and accurately while they
can still be effectively treated? And our kind of research is certainly
not the only kind without direct impact on the fundamental quality of
life -- for example, there is environmental sciences work on pollution,
and structural engineering ensuring that your building will not
collapse in an earthquake or that the bridge you drive over regularily
won't collapse under load.

There are *many* researchers (of various kinds) paying full price for
Mathworks products and working hard to improve your life. In my
opinion, when you "despair" and "rage" that you can't get the newest
software version immediately and for nearly free, you are not placing
much value upon the efforts and personal sacrifices of those
researchers.

--
  "They called it golf because all the other four letter words
  were taken." -- Walter Hagen

Walter...

I can only applaud the immense dedication and drive that
you, your colleagues and many peers live in the battle for
the early detection and effective treatment of life
threatening illness. You have well described your personal
experience with the tragic loss of family and friends to
disease.

Unfortunately, you then go on to disparage the childish
naivety of my expressions of despair and rage at the
MathWorks’ policy for Student Version releases, a
meaningless triviality in the grand scheme of things. By
implication, these immature rantings of mine have seemed to
place me firmly in the “thoroughly undeserving” category of
the software pecking order.

But I see your point.

As I write this, I honestly live in “fear” as I watch my
father gradually die. Prostate cancer, at the ripe “old”
age of 49.

Despite this, I still have occasion to “despair” the rising
price of petrol and “rage” at the stupidity of our
government’s economic policies. I suspect I am not alone in
this. These quoted terms of emotion do not hold values
which are absolute, only relative to their subject and
context.

I prefer to make a point (even a technical one) with
evocative prose, rather than limiting myself to dull
apparatchik speak. It brings me a little bit of joy to
write in this way, and to see how others respond to it. I
guess it is a matter of style, and I accept that you do not
share my taste for it.

Now on to the substance of the argument...

The foundation of our disagreement lies in your assumption
that software (and perhaps intellectual property in
general) has an intrinsic value, a price at which it fairly
trades. It does not.

When purchasing a physical product or commodity, you are
correct in stating that many government departments are
mandated to pay a vendor no more than the “best price”
available to the highest volume commercial customer. If
your organization purchases a hammer, the best price will
be quite close to hammer’s intrinsic value, the cost for
its manufacture.

Of course, a physical product is rarely sold with attached
contractual restrictions on how it may be used. And so you
would be quite surprised to discover that the hammer
packaging was printed with an obligatory “by opening this
box you agree to the vendor’s specific terms of use”
warning (building a house – OK, building a factory – not
OK).

Intellectual property, of the other hand, derives its value
*only* from the use which is allowed by the terms of its
license. The purchase of a $7.95 paperback novel comes with
it only those rights granted by the copyright (as tempered
by fair use), that is it may be read to oneself or aloud in
a non-commercial setting, summarized publically and quoted
in short passages as reference. The rights to read the
novel verbatim on network radio, or base a television
miniseries on its story line, would require paying somewhat
more than the “amazing discount” of $7.95.

As the government department for which you work does not
seem to qualify as a “degree-granting institution”, your
budget must suffer the licensing costs for Commercial Use.
Though you may chooses to argue with MathWorks on the noble
cause of your group’s research, I have no doubt that they
will deliver at the “best price” for the particular license
agreed to be necessary.

http://www.mathworks.com/products/matlab/pricing_licensing.h
tml

The much lower price (and greater restrictions) offered by
MathWorks for Student Use does not represent a “discount”
on the “retail” price of Commercial Use. The licences are,
if you will, separate products distinguishable by the value
of the use derived from them. Should MathWorks ever see its
way to offering unified functionality and release dates for
their separate license categories, the value that your
government would continue to realize from your personal use
of MATLAB (helping to save lives and mitigate its
spiralling healthcare costs) would also continue to far
exceed the value that my university is likely to gain from
my own mathematical tinkering (which is to silly to
mention).

This difference is the “premium value” that you expect for
the “full price” that your organization pays.

Kind regards,

Hui

"Hui " <hui@notlikely.com> wrote in message

...
> I prefer to make a point (even a technical one) with
> evocative prose, rather than limiting myself to dull
> apparatchik speak. It brings me a little bit of joy to
> write in this way, and to see how others respond to it. I
> guess it is a matter of style, and I accept that you do not
> share my taste for it.

What you are are saying is not just a matter of taste or
style. What you are saying is that you are free to speak
poorly of someone to make your point and to watch them
squirm, just for your own selfish "joy".

Treating someone who deserves respect with respect does not
mean that you are limited to "dull apparatchik speak [sic]".

Reconsider, and do what is right.

Hi Tim,

I find myself taken aback by your post, as it has never
been my intention to speak poorly of any individual.
However, I do realize that others sometimes read a
different meaning into what I have intended to write, and
so I respect your decision to relate your impression of me
to this list.

In my April 26 reply to Walter Roberson’s post, I opened
with praise of the tireless work by his team to eliminate
life-threatening illness. My praise was sincere. Though I
am young, I have intimate experience of the pain of slowly
losing a loved one to cancer.

I did briefly defend myself against at Mr Roberson’s over-
interpretation of my “despair” and “rage” at MathWorks
policies, and his suggestion that I hold a conceited
preference for timely MATLAB student releases over the
nobler needs of the medical researcher (see his final three
paragraphs). It was only in this context that I attempted
to explain myself by mentioning a preference for evocative
prose over “dull apparatchik speak”. Please note that I
made no implication that Mr Roberson’s writing falls into
the latter category, only that a-speak is the opposite of
my own chosen method.

In my reply to Mr Roberson, I quickly moved on to the
substance of our disagreement: how intellectual property
(software) is legally valued. I did not, at any point, make
any personal criticism of Mr Roberson or his beliefs. I
remain confident that my arguments on software value were
expressed politely with a focus on correcting a common
misunderstanding.

You will see in my March 9 post to this thread that I
similarly defended my use of words from a bit of name
calling by D. Ismay (my favorite being “Weeping Hui”).
Rather than throw back a few choice words of my own, I
attempted to illuminate my view that the commercial use of
software derives greater value and therefore costs more,
that MathWorks uses the higher margins from corporate and
government customers to offer useful products to education
at a much lower cost, and that MathWorks is uncompetitive
in their policies to education in comparison with other
major software vendors (Wolfram, Microsoft, etc.).

I wish to close by offering my sincere apology to any
person offended by my postings. To the best of my
knowledge, I have only ever directed strongly worded
criticism at an organization (MathWorks), and never an
individual. If others have taken a different
interpretation, I assure you that this has never been my
intention.

Kind regards,

Hui

PS. Tim… Your response makes reference to my use of the
phase "dull apparatchik speak", and to this you then
add “[sic]”. I have to admit to being confused
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apparatchik,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sic).

OK,

Trying to avoid getting hot headed about this. Allow me to
state some facts, in no particular order:

1. I'm a student too, about to buy a license of my own
(currently use uni computers).

2. For such a well designed and useful product, the cost of
a student license is currently pretty minimal.

3. Allowing vastly reduced licensing fees to academia,
particularly for student learning, benefits TMW in the
long-run, by establishing MATLAB as THE software to use.

4. Case study of 3: At my last company, nobody used MATLAB.
After a year spent re-writing design codes in MATLAB and
demonstrating it's capability (as I learned at uni, it's
MUCH better for design optimisation than fortran is!), I
left the company - the team of 8 I left behind now use
MATLAB daily.

5. Most releases of MATLAB aren't that dissimilar to the
previous one.

6. R2008a is actually a big one, due to Object orientation;
but it'd be pretty unwise to rely on this before you've even
tried it... leave it a version or two to settle down to a
stable and well-integrated solution.

7. OO capability already exists in MATLAB... ever heard of
MEX files in C?



____________CONCLUSIONS_________

1. Cheers to TMW for letting me have a product I could never
afford otherwise, even if it is a bit out of date.

2. If we (students) want TMW's policy on student versions to
change, why don't we:
 - stop arguing about it here
 - get involved with the student version preference survey
(second post) by emailing Pete Janzow and volunteering.
Pete, you've got mail from me.



___________ FUNNY COMMENT _________

Is it just me, or should the spell checker on this site
really recognise the word MATLAB??

Thomas, I completely agree with your case study as that has
been true at my current place of employment. Students have
a proven knack for bringing new methods into the workplace
that "veterans" haven't had the time to investigate, so TMW
does eventually benefit in sales from providing student
versions. I would also like to point out to a previous
poster that it is preferable for students to use the newest
version of Matlab as there will be less of a learning curve
when a person jumps from academia to industry. Learning new
code, particularly the OOP that has just been added, can
take quite a while. As a manager, would you rather pay a
new hire to read a book and start from scratch, or have the
new hire pay that him/herself in the form of tuition while
in school? Sticker shock is high with this product, but if
that cost is recouped, then it's part of business and should
be expected just as in any other industry. Just because a
manager drops thousands on licenses, as I just have, that
doesn't mean that students should be treated as second class
users just because they spent ~$100 on a single license.
Sure there is a disparity in cost, but if you want a new
hire to come in knowing the program rather than spending
tens of thousands for new hires to learn on the job, then it
is a foregone conclusion that you should also want students
to have access to the latest versions. I don't mean to add
to a flame war, but this is a point on the benefits to all
parties involved by offering student versions.

In article <g09l1o$nr8$1@fred.mathworks.com>,
Jeff <addfirstinitialremoveunderscore_rpresto@gmail.com> wrote:
>I would also like to point out to a previous
>poster that it is preferable for students to use the newest
>version of Matlab as there will be less of a learning curve
>when a person jumps from academia to industry. Learning new
>code, particularly the OOP that has just been added, can
>take quite a while.

When the student makes the jump to industry, the industry probably
won't have the newest version installed either, other than perhaps
within a small group responsible for testing compatability before
doing a mass upgrade. It is also going to take the industry's
internal software reviewers time to learn the meaning and implications
of the new features, so the software review teams are not going to
be ready for code that relies substantially upon new features.

Industry has version inertia. It has to, for projects of any
size. Coding styles and allowed features get nailed down relatively
early in a project lifetime (though presumably -after- the
requirements document has been completed.) You don't introduce
major new programming-language features mid-project any more than you
introduce major new project features in mid-project -- not if you
want to keep your deadlines and keep your costs under control.
--
  "And that's the way it is." -- Walter Cronkite

"us " <us@neurol.unizh.ch> wrote in news:fqstuq$dfb$1@fred.mathworks.com:

> "Hui ":
> <SNIP on TMW's policy for ML's student's edition...
>
> having used ML since 1986 - and having taught ML for and
> thereby inspired literally thousands(!) of students for two
> decades+ - i completely agree with and second the OP's
> (call it: crassly worded) opinion in frustration...
>
> TMW - you MUST do better with our <pets of the family> - or
> many advisers will continue to - accidentally and
> haphazardly(?) - leave the institutes PLP on their desks...
> (which - you know quite well - is what happens (guess-
> work:) 10x/license...)
>
> us

Au contraire, I think the latest remodelling of the student version is a
huge improvement over the previous student version-- the one that really
ticked me off. The "engineering friendliness" for the base student package
has really gone up. It now approaches a reasonable cost that might make
site licensing unnecessary.

--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

Geez, using Matlab doesn't seem to help much...

That's the asking price. 100 bucks for a student licence (no
renewal), 13k for a decent "industrial" version, free when
you use it at school (ain't that a good enough deal for ya
?) etc.

You like it, you pay it, you go away happy. Or you don't, in
which case you don't pay a dime, you go to Wolfram who has a
better deal. Mathematica's bang-for-the buck ain't enough ?
You can go for open source, but then you have to scan the
forums for installation issues of S or R or Octave under
various flavours of Linux and GNU plot, in combination with
(un)known issues with video cards, etc. Everything has got a
price tag.

This is the way it worked since before Adam Smith, save a
few wars when people took stuff by force. Compared to our
forefathers' tools we're faring much better now, we have
quite a bit of choice. However, you choose to complain. You
think people at Mathworks are not treating you right. You
know better than them how much is worth their work.

Congratulations.



"Hui " <hui@notlikely.com> wrote in message
<fqss0u$p3o$1@fred.mathworks.com>...
> Hi Pete,
>
> Thank you for your exceptionally fast response to my
> question. Unfortunately, I am not at all impressed with the
> MathWorks response!
>
> If MathWorks actually does “recognize that most of [their]
> users first encounter MATLAB while studying at their
> university”, why does the company continue to treat those
> student customers (which grow up to be professional
> customers) with such shameless contempt?
> [... snip ...]
>
> I have purchased Wolfram Mathematica 6.0 for Students at a
> cost of $139.95. For an additional cost of $67.50 per year
> I get Student Premier Service which, among many other
> benefits, includes automatic upgrades to the latest product
> release the moment it becomes available. Next year I get
> 10% of my Premier Service and, for the rest of my student
> career, these benefits continue.
>
> [...]
> It isn’t hard to imagine where my loyalty is drifting, nor
> what I will likely recommend to my employer when I grow up.
> I’ll let you know how I get on.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Hui
>
> PS. MATLAB? & Simulink Student Version R2007a includes:
>
> MATLAB $1,900
> Simulink 3,000
> Control System Toolbox 1,000
> Signal Processing Toolbox 800
> Signal Processing Blockset 1,000
> Statistics Toolbox 1,000
> Optimization Toolbox 1,000
> Image Processing Toolbox 1,000
> Symbolic Math Toolbox 600
> $13,300
>