Thread Subject: Homework = SPAM

I suggest that shameless requests for homework solutions be
considered SPAM (what else could they be?). So, let's mark
them as such so they disappear from TMW newsreader.

"Duane Hanselman" <masteringmatlab@yahoo.spam.com> wrote in
message <fu25fp$ajp$1@fred.mathworks.com>...
> I suggest that shameless requests for homework solutions be
> considered SPAM (what else could they be?). So, let's mark
> them as such so they disappear from TMW newsreader.

I totally agree with you.
I was away from CSSM for a long time and now I remember why
: too much homework with titles like "Pleaze help" "Urgent
help needed"....
I will really be happy to help but it is difficult when
title doesn't say nothing about the subject and when the
text is only "please give me code...".
And I'm afraid that that sort of person never read other's
thread.

"Duane Hanselman" <masteringmatlab@yahoo.spam.com> wrote in message
<fu25fp$ajp$1@fred.mathworks.com>...
> I suggest that shameless requests for homework solutions be
> considered SPAM (what else could they be?). So, let's mark
> them as such so they disappear from TMW newsreader.
------------
  I strongly disagree with your suggestion, Duane. To begin with, the
traditional notion of a spam article is that it be motivated by some kind of
commercial or personal gain and not be pertinent to the understood subject
matter of a newsgroup. Requests for homework assistance in matlab
problems made on CSSM clearly do NOT fit into that category. They are quite
evidently within the subject matter of this newsgroup, however annoying they
may be in other respects.

  Secondly, it is not always easy to determine for certain whether a given
request is actually homework or simply someone trying, however
ineffectively, to better understand on his or her own, how matlab works. I
think almost all of us who attempt to help others in this newsgroup have at
one time or another falsely accused someone of getting help in their
homework. It is a decision that needs to be made by each individual as to
whether to help or not. If we resort to the spam expedient, that transfers the
decision to only a few, namely five, individuals as to whether to allow answers
to be given. I am not happy relegating that kind of responsibility to so few
people. I want to retain the right to help others based on my own decision as
to whether I think it is justified.

  Finally, I have noticed that the more obvious homework requests in this
newsgroup generally fare quite poorly. The success rate in getting good
answers to shameless requests seems to be exceedingly low. Frequently the
result in such cases is much criticism or even taunting with few valid answers
provided. This is surely almost as much of an obstacle as having one's article
declared spam.

  I would recommend leaving spam declarations as they are at present,
reserved for shameless intrusions into a newsgroup of matters of commercial
or personal gain, unrelated to this newsgroup subject, and deal with
homework requests in an entirely different manner. In the sense that these
requests receive little success, I would say the present procedure is working
reasonably well.

Roger Stafford

French Caro wrote:
...
> : too much homework with titles like "Pleaze help" "Urgent
> help needed"....
...

Any such posting I just mark as "ignore thread" in my reader as a matter
of course w/o going any further...

--

dpb <none@non.net> wrote in message <fu293j$th$2@aioe.org>...
> French Caro wrote:
> ...
> > : too much homework with titles like "Pleaze help" "Urgent
> > help needed"....
> ...
>
> Any such posting I just mark as "ignore thread" in my
reader as a matter
> of course w/o going any further...
>
> --


lol, if you need help with MATLAB this is THE place to come.
 So what's the stink about? If you dont want to answer
their questions then don't ...

All things considered, this thread is probably more spam
than any "URGENT!!! Need help" posting

"Duane Hanselman" <masteringmatlab@yahoo.spam.com> wrote
in message <fu25fp$ajp$1@fred.mathworks.com>...
> I suggest that shameless requests for homework solutions
be
> considered SPAM (what else could they be?). So, let's
mark
> them as such so they disappear from TMW newsreader.

Duane,
Maybe it will be better if you refered the person to
another user group that can help.

As one grows older(or more experienced), the idea that we
can solve all the worlds problems alone on our own becomes
a lot more an unwise display of intelectual prowess.

 However each one of us will have to decide whether
spending a week trying to solve from first principles a
routine one learned thirty years ago, or to ask for help
is a sign of humility in my opinion.

The difference between success and failure in the
comercial world is to know when to ask for help and when
to go it alone.
That in my opinion is wisdom.
In fact in MBA classes, six sigmas and research, you are
encouraged to ask for help.

So in my opinion asking for help for solutions does not
demean a persons proposition.

Regards,

Chuk

"Abel Brown" <brown.2179@osu.edu> wrote in message
<fu2a3t$3fp$1@fred.mathworks.com>...

> lol, if you need help with MATLAB this is THE place to come.
> So what's the stink about? If you dont want to answer
> their questions then don't ...
>
> All things considered, this thread is probably more spam
> than any "URGENT!!! Need help" posting
>
>
Well, I suppose that this sentence exists also in English
(if not I hope my translation is acceptable) :
"Help yourself and the sky will help you".

So if someone need help the first step is to show that he
had search a little,not just copy-paste his exercise.
And another step is to give a "good" title in order to help
those who want to help to find easily the subjects they can
help on. And also for people having the same problem to find
the subjects

Hope I'm understable...

On Apr 15, 9:59 am, "French Caro " <caro95...@nospam.free.fr> wrote:
> "Abel Brown" <brown.2...@osu.edu> wrote in message
>
> <fu2a3t$3f...@fred.mathworks.com>...
>
> > lol, if you need help with MATLAB this is THE place to come.
> > So what's the stink about? If you dont want to answer
> > their questions then don't ...
>
> > All things considered, this thread is probably more spam
> > than any "URGENT!!! Need help" posting
>
> Well, I suppose that this sentence exists also in English
> (if not I hope my translation is acceptable) :
> "Help yourself and the sky will help you".

No, it doesn't actually.

Closest equivalent: "God helps those who help themselves".

And a similar one: "Give a man a fish and you feed him
for a day. Teach him to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."

> So if someone need help the first step is to show that he
> had search a little,not just copy-paste his exercise.
> And another step is to give a "good" title in order to help
> those who want to help to find easily the subjects they can
> help on. And also for people having the same problem to find
> the subjects

I agree it's worth trying to teach people, including teaching
them to write useful subject lines. Occasionally I'll edit a
subject line myself. I've noticed that "Help! Urgent!" also
occurs with what seem to be legitimate requests, not
just homework. Also, for some reason people will
often say things like "I'm getting an error, can anyone help
me?" without telling us what the error is or showing us
any code.

              - Randy

To my mind, those that do ask for homework to be done for them do gain
from this newsgroup.
If I had sent in a request, and then seen that it was labeled as spam
and deleted, all I would do
is grumble about 'stupid spam filters getting it wrong.'

However, looking at my request the next day, gleefully anticipating
that some paradoxically
wiser-than-I sucker has done my work for me, only to have my ego and
hubris crushed by the biting
comments of other C.S-S.M readers, I would learn
a) to try things for myself first, rather than trust the fiendish
internet
b) to put myself in others' shoes, so as to understand why nobody
helped me
c) to phrase my next, hopefully more informed and informative, request
in clean, clear, descriptive terms.

Let them ask, let them get burned!

Besides, I have told people off for asking for homework help, and it's
fun!

Colin

colin <noidfreak@gmail.com> wrote in message <281d248c-f42d-45a1-
9518-55b7c31f9c3f@x19g2000prg.googlegroups.com>...

> Besides, I have told people off for asking for homework help, and it's
> fun!

For me, the challenge is to be creative in my
response. For a student who saw no reason
to be more involved than pasting in their
assignment verbatim, I see no reason to be
more helpful than offer a chuckle at their
expense.

If someone does succeed to convince me
they have made an effort, then a homework
question is entirely acceptable. But this
requires they show their work. They must
have invested some mental effort for me to
do the same.

John

"John D'Errico" <woodchips@rochester.rr.com> wrote in
message <fu2fnt$r2d$1@fred.mathworks.com>...
> colin <noidfreak@gmail.com> wrote in message <281d248c-
f42d-45a1-
> 9518-55b7c31f9c3f@x19g2000prg.googlegroups.com>...
>
> > Besides, I have told people off for asking for homework
help, and it's
> > fun!
>
> For me, the challenge is to be creative in my
> response. For a student who saw no reason
> to be more involved than pasting in their
> assignment verbatim, I see no reason to be
> more helpful than offer a chuckle at their
> expense.
>
> If someone does succeed to convince me
> they have made an effort, then a homework
> question is entirely acceptable. But this
> requires they show their work. They must
> have invested some mental effort for me to
> do the same.
>
> John

I have to agree with Colin and John here. The thought that
I should put myself out and do some lazy blighters
homework, only for them to cut and paste it into their
work, with their name on it makes me quite angry, after all
most of us have had to put ourselves out and learn how to
use Matlab, and it is time for them to discover there is no
shortcut to know how.

It is for that reason I make it a policy not to provide
full matlab scripts holding the solution to their question,
but rather try to give pointers to methods which might do
what they ask, yet still leave them with the task of doing
the grunt work of keying in all of the ifs & fors etc.
which, in my opinion is the only way to learn.

Regards

Dave Robinson

> However, looking at my request the next day, gleefully anticipating

I think it's more like a desperate anticipation.

> that some paradoxically
> wiser-than-I sucker has done my work for me, only to have my ego and
> hubris crushed by the biting
> comments of other C.S-S.M readers, I would learn
> a) to try things for myself first, rather than trust the fiendish
> internet
> b) to put myself in others' shoes, so as to understand why nobody
> helped me
> c) to phrase my next, hopefully more informed and informative, request
> in clean, clear, descriptive terms.
d) Those guys in C.S.S.M are a bunch of jerks.

Here's my two cents.

It's not SPAM, and treating it as SPAM probably won't be useful. It
might discourage a few moochers, but certainly not the worst of
them.
Treating it as SPAM probably will discourage a few desperate students,
(those who might be genuine, or deserving, or whatever) who simply
haven't learned how to ask questions to the internet.

As far as cheating on homework goes, getting something for nothing
etc. etc. I've seen lots of those types come and go. They don't tend
to get far IMHO. I never worried too much about them, even if they
made better grades than me. Those moochers will probably come back
for more (easy money), at which time, "let them have it."

The real point is that there is an opportunity to introduce new people
to the concept and practice of sharing expertise / helping others.
One could easily squander it with a few good one-liners (like RTFM).
It's also my opinion that helpful, supportive communities grow more
than the other types.

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" --Crowley

Cullen

In article <fu25fp$ajp$1@fred.mathworks.com>,
Duane Hanselman <masteringmatlab@yahoo.spam.com> wrote:
>I suggest that shameless requests for homework solutions be
>considered SPAM (what else could they be?). So, let's mark
>them as such so they disappear from TMW newsreader.

A typical comp.lang.c response to homework requests is,

  "The error is on line 42 of your code."

--
   "I was very young in those days, but I was also rather dim."
   -- Christopher Priest

In article <fu2a3t$3fp$1@fred.mathworks.com>,
Abel Brown <brown.2179@osu.edu> wrote:

>lol, if you need help with MATLAB this is THE place to come.
> So what's the stink about? If you dont want to answer
>their questions then don't ...

The people we are referring to here typically do not need
help with MATLAB so much as they need help with time management,
learning strategies, and social skills such as diplomacy and
cooperation. When their questions are answered with actual code
that would do what they asked, what they learn is not MATLAB but
rather how to get other people to do their work.

Besides, "if you need help with MATLAB this is THE place to come" is a
misunderstanding of the nature of this newsgroup. For typical homework
assignments, "THE" place to go is to one's class texts, class notes,
TAs, and tutors. This is not a place to expect to get tutored on (say)
cell-phone communication protocols and associated electromagnetic
theory just because the implementation is expected to be in MATLAB. And
we get a -lot- of questions like that, questions that really only have
a small number of realistic answers, "Go away and learn this yourself";
or "Here's the complete code; you probably won't learn anything from
it, but it will get you to go away"; or "Here's a 30 page introduction
to what you need to know to know what questions to ask to solve this
problem".

This newsgroup is for -sharing- of questions and experience. All
I get out of a posting saying, "Here's my homework, what's the answer?"
is the feeling that I'm being imposed on and disrespected.
A well-posed question, on the other hand, that I can *learn* from,
learn from the question, learn from trying to solve it myself, and
learn from seeing the answers that others contribute.
--
  "Prevention is the daughter of intelligence."
                                              -- Sir Walter Raleigh

roberson@ibd.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca (Walter Roberson) wrote in
message <fu2lpi$dci$1@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca>...
> In article <fu2a3t$3fp$1@fred.mathworks.com>,
> Abel Brown <brown.2179@osu.edu> wrote:
>
> >lol, if you need help with MATLAB this is THE place to come.
> > So what's the stink about? If you dont want to answer
> >their questions then don't ...
>
> The people we are referring to here typically do not need
> help with MATLAB so much as they need help with time
management,
> learning strategies, and social skills such as diplomacy and
> cooperation. When their questions are answered with actual
code
> that would do what they asked, what they learn is not
MATLAB but
> rather how to get other people to do their work.
>
> Besides, "if you need help with MATLAB this is THE place
to come" is a
> misunderstanding of the nature of this newsgroup. For
typical homework
> assignments, "THE" place to go is to one's class texts,
class notes,
> TAs, and tutors. This is not a place to expect to get
tutored on (say)
> cell-phone communication protocols and associated
electromagnetic
> theory just because the implementation is expected to be
in MATLAB. And
> we get a -lot- of questions like that, questions that
really only have
> a small number of realistic answers, "Go away and learn
this yourself";
> or "Here's the complete code; you probably won't learn
anything from
> it, but it will get you to go away"; or "Here's a 30 page
introduction
> to what you need to know to know what questions to ask to
solve this
> problem".
>
> This newsgroup is for -sharing- of questions and
experience. All
> I get out of a posting saying, "Here's my homework, what's
the answer?"
> is the feeling that I'm being imposed on and disrespected.
> A well-posed question, on the other hand, that I can
*learn* from,
> learn from the question, learn from trying to solve it
myself, and
> learn from seeing the answers that others contribute.
> --
> "Prevention is the daughter of intelligence."
> -- Sir
Walter Raleigh


blah blah blah ....

like i said if you dont want to answer their questions then
dont. iv wasted more time contributing to this meaningless
thread than any "NEED HELP URGENT" posting.

Of course no one wants to be taken advantage of. but If i
read a thread and i know the answer I post the answer. I
dont worry about this that and the other.

do what you will, if you got matlab questions we got matlab
answers. It's pretty simple.

And god forbid someone really does need "URGENT!!!!" help.
Well then there is no place better to come than this forum.

Misuse of the forum will always exist ... get use to it.

  This thread has now grown to at least fifteen articles in response to Duane
Hanselman's apparently very serious proposal to extend the definition of
spam to include homework requests. I confess to being disappointed in the
majority of these. The emphasis in them has primarily been on how
frustrating it is to have done someone else's homework and how thoughtless
it is for those who do the requesting to have imposed in this manner on those
furnishing the assistance.

  All this is very true and I sincerely share these sentiments of frustration, but
I think the basic issue involved here has been seriously overlooked. The
primary issue in my opinion is whether we agree to allow five - only five -
registered members of this Mathworks' Newsreader group to decide for all
the rest of us just which articles constitute homework requests and which
don't. If only five members click the "flag as spam" button for an article
merely because they consider it a homework request, the rest of us will never
see that article. I don't want that decision made for me, and I suspect there
are many others in this group who share that opinion.

  Duane Hanselman has recommended what I regard as an extreme solution
to the homework problem, a solution that could bode serious consequences
for the way in which this group is regarded by others. What we don't want is
to be looked upon as some kind of elite group of arrogant people that doesn't
really care about those seeking help. If that came to pass, it could spell the
death knell to the group's reputation. I take Duane Hanselman's proposal
very seriously and feel deeply that it could fundamentally undermine what
this group stands for if it were to be implemented.

Roger Stafford

In article <fu2rup$evl$1@fred.mathworks.com>,
Roger Stafford <ellieandrogerxyzzy@mindspring.com.invalid> wrote:

> All this is very true and I sincerely share these sentiments of frustration, but
>I think the basic issue involved here has been seriously overlooked. The
>primary issue in my opinion is whether we agree to allow five - only five -
>registered members of this Mathworks' Newsreader group to decide for all
>the rest of us just which articles constitute homework requests and which
>don't. If only five members click the "flag as spam" button for an article
>merely because they consider it a homework request, the rest of us will never
>see that article. I don't want that decision made for me, and I suspect there
>are many others in this group who share that opinion.

I'm sure the Mathworks people could implement a seperate "homework"
button, along with a configurable filtering option. I would expect
in such a case that the messages would continue to get sent out to
Usenet.
--
  "Beauty, like all other qualities presented to human experience,
  is relative; and the definition of it becomes unmeaning and
  useless in proportion to its abstractness." -- Walter Pater

On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 12:02:01 +0000 (UTC), "Duane Hanselman"
<masteringmatlab@yahoo.spam.com> wrote:

>I suggest that shameless requests for homework solutions be
>considered SPAM (what else could they be?). So, let's mark
>them as such so they disappear from TMW newsreader.

I will add my vote / opinion to all of the others. I would choose to
leave it as it is. Yeah, it's a bother when someone doesn't do
anything more than post their homework question without showing any
initiative in solving the problem themselves. But I would rather put
up with that than lump the students that *did* show a good start in
with them. Plus I am always a little bit curious what the professors
are asking these days, and as mentioned earlier it is sometimes a
source of humor. The first reader can always tag it as homework so the
rest of us know before opening it. Maybe we need two different tags ..
one for shameless questions and another for serious questions that
showed some work.

James Tursa

 

Another thought. How about tagging the shameless posts as
"homework" and the more serious posts where OP shows a
reasonable attempt at a solution on their own but needs help
as "student".

James Tursa

Abel Brown wrote on 15-Apr-08 10:54 :
[...]
>
>
> b<bitchslap>

since when do you run the newsgroup, dimbulb?

"James Tursa" <aclassyguywithaknotac@hotmail.com> wrote in message
<fu3m9o$ojs$1@fred.mathworks.com>...
>
> Another thought. How about tagging the shameless posts as
> "homework" and the more serious posts where OP shows a
> reasonable attempt at a solution on their own but needs help
> as "student".
>
> James Tursa

I like it. This makes good sense. It gives others an
idea of which posts to bother looking at.

John