Thread Subject: Internet access during exams

Just a heads-up / warning for the regulars who answer
questions and provide other help here:

The Norwegian Ministry of Education is abut to test
examinations where students have access to internet:

http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Skeptiske-til--bruke-Internett-p-eksamen-6734506.html

(Haven't found an English version yet; no doubt some will
pop up as soon the international news stations pick up on
this lunacy.)

As for now, there is a non-vanishing chance that there
might pop up questions from students who need answers
not for homework or projects, but for exams. The idea
is insane enough to actually spread to other parts of
the world, so beware; the answers you give here might
be what get your next colleague his or her diploma...

Rune

On Thu, 5 Jan 2012 14:40:48 -0800 (PST), Rune Allnor
<allnor@tele.ntnu.no> wrote:

>Just a heads-up / warning for the regulars who answer
>questions and provide other help here:
>
>The Norwegian Ministry of Education is abut to test
>examinations where students have access to internet:
>
>http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Skeptiske-til--bruke-Internett-p-eksamen-6734506.html
>
>(Haven't found an English version yet; no doubt some will
>pop up as soon the international news stations pick up on
>this lunacy.)
>
>As for now, there is a non-vanishing chance that there
>might pop up questions from students who need answers
>not for homework or projects, but for exams. The idea
>is insane enough to actually spread to other parts of
>the world, so beware; the answers you give here might
>be what get your next colleague his or her diploma...
>
>Rune

Usenet, and most internet q&a venues, isn't good for real-time
answers, so I doubt it'll be much problem here. It's easily managed
at an individual level by just looking at the post time and not
responding unless a typical exam duration has passed.


Eric Jacobsen
Anchor Hill Communications
www.anchorhill.com

On 1/5/2012 5:52 PM, Eric Jacobsen wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Jan 2012 14:40:48 -0800 (PST), Rune Allnor
> <allnor@tele.ntnu.no> wrote:
>
>> Just a heads-up / warning for the regulars who answer
>> questions and provide other help here:
>>
>> The Norwegian Ministry of Education is abut to test
>> examinations where students have access to internet:
>>
>> http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Skeptiske-til--bruke-Internett-p-eksamen-6734506.html
>>
>> (Haven't found an English version yet; no doubt some will
>> pop up as soon the international news stations pick up on
>> this lunacy.)
>>
>> As for now, there is a non-vanishing chance that there
>> might pop up questions from students who need answers
>> not for homework or projects, but for exams. The idea
>> is insane enough to actually spread to other parts of
>> the world, so beware; the answers you give here might
>> be what get your next colleague his or her diploma...
>>
>> Rune
>
> Usenet, and most internet q&a venues, isn't good for real-time
> answers, so I doubt it'll be much problem here. It's easily managed
> at an individual level by just looking at the post time and not
> responding unless a typical exam duration has passed.

If access to newsgroups brings email with it, then there's another
avenue of information transfer.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

On Thu, 05 Jan 2012 14:40:48 -0800, Rune Allnor wrote:

> Just a heads-up / warning for the regulars who answer questions and
> provide other help here:
>
> The Norwegian Ministry of Education is abut to test examinations where
> students have access to internet:
>
> http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Skeptiske-til--bruke-Internett-
p-eksamen-6734506.html
>
> (Haven't found an English version yet; no doubt some will pop up as soon
> the international news stations pick up on this lunacy.)
>
> As for now, there is a non-vanishing chance that there might pop up
> questions from students who need answers not for homework or projects,
> but for exams. The idea is insane enough to actually spread to other
> parts of the world, so beware; the answers you give here might be what
> get your next colleague his or her diploma...

The answer is to design the exam so that having access to the Internet
doesn't help.

I don't know if that's _possible_, but that's the _answer_.

--
My liberal friends think I'm a conservative kook.
My conservative friends think I'm a liberal kook.
Why am I not happy that they have found common ground?

Tim Wescott, Communications, Control, Circuits & Software
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Rune Allnor wrote:
> Just a heads-up / warning for the regulars who answer
> questions and provide other help here:
>
> The Norwegian Ministry of Education is abut to test
> examinations where students have access to internet:
>
> http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Skeptiske-til--bruke-Internett-p-eksamen-6734506.html
>
> (Haven't found an English version yet; no doubt some will
> pop up as soon the international news stations pick up on
> this lunacy.)
>
> As for now, there is a non-vanishing chance that there
> might pop up questions from students who need answers
> not for homework or projects, but for exams. The idea
> is insane enough to actually spread to other parts of
> the world, so beware; the answers you give here might
> be what get your next colleague his or her diploma...
>
> Rune


Usenet is faaaaar too slow for that....

--
Les Cargill

On Thu, 05 Jan 2012 17:53:34 -0600, Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 05 Jan 2012 14:40:48 -0800, Rune Allnor wrote:
>
>> Just a heads-up / warning for the regulars who answer questions and
>> provide other help here:
>>
>> The Norwegian Ministry of Education is abut to test examinations where
>> students have access to internet:
>>
>> http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Skeptiske-til--bruke-Internett-
>p-eksamen-6734506.html
>>
>> (Haven't found an English version yet; no doubt some will pop up as soon
>> the international news stations pick up on this lunacy.)
>>
>> As for now, there is a non-vanishing chance that there might pop up
>> questions from students who need answers not for homework or projects,
>> but for exams. The idea is insane enough to actually spread to other
>> parts of the world, so beware; the answers you give here might be what
>> get your next colleague his or her diploma...
>
>The answer is to design the exam so that having access to the Internet
>doesn't help.
>
>I don't know if that's _possible_, but that's the _answer_.

Or that you can detect that the internet was used. That'd probably
be just as effective.


Eric Jacobsen
Anchor Hill Communications
www.anchorhill.com

On Thu, 5 Jan 2012 14:40:48 -0800 (PST), Rune Allnor
<allnor@tele.ntnu.no> wrote:

>Just a heads-up / warning for the regulars who answer
>questions and provide other help here:
>
>The Norwegian Ministry of Education is abut to test
>examinations where students have access to internet:
>
>http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Skeptiske-til--bruke-Internett-p-eksamen-6734506.html
>
>(Haven't found an English version yet; no doubt some will
>pop up as soon the international news stations pick up on
>this lunacy.)
>
>As for now, there is a non-vanishing chance that there
>might pop up questions from students who need answers
>not for homework or projects, but for exams. The idea
>is insane enough to actually spread to other parts of
>the world, so beware; the answers you give here might
>be what get your next colleague his or her diploma...
>
>Rune

Hi Rune,
   it seems like the Norwegian education system is run
by idiots, but I bet it's still not as bad as the
self-destructive lunatics in America. Here in the
states we have a government organization called the
Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC),
an outrageously crazy organization that has far too much
influence over American business. Those harebrained
EEOC fools have issued a "letter" warning American
businesses that it might someday be illegal for a
business to require that job applicants have a high
school diploma!! I'm not making this up.

(Why are white cultures so suicidal????)

If you don't believe me, see the following:

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/politics/10409-eeoc-to-employers-requiring-hs-diploma-may-violate-disabilities-act

[-Rick-]

"Les Cargill" <lcargill99@comcast.com> wrote in message
news:je5gq2$t9h$2@dont-email.me...
> Rune Allnor wrote:

Thanks to Rune for the heads-up.

*snip*

> Usenet is faaaaar too slow for that....

Rune's message (which my newsreader indicates was posted at 5:40 PM
yesterday my time) received two responses (at least on CSSM; I haven't
checked if it received any that were posted solely to comp.dsp) within 40
minutes; posting a request for "help" at the very beginning of an exam and
coming back to that question at the end is possible.

I think with Rune's warning the gurus can be on the look out for posts that
seem like exam questions. The CSSM gurus are pretty good about spotting
homework questions; I'm guessing the comp.dsp gurus are as well. This will
be similar. When we see one, we can alert the rest of the community with a
message like "This sounds like an exam question, so I'm not going to answer
now; come back in six hours or so." as Eric suggested.

In addition, using Usenet for cheating by asking the exam question will
generally leave a fairly indelible trace with at least Google Groups (and in
the case of CSSM the MATLAB Central newsreader) and other sites archiving
posts for posterity. [Yes, I know there are ways around this, but those
aren't foolproof either.]

Finally, I'm curious to hear from Danish educators; the Google Translate
translation (which is actually pretty good) of the article indicates that
they've allowed this since 2008. Has cheating via Usenet newsgroups been a
big problem for your exams since then?

--
Steve Lord
slord@mathworks.com
To contact Technical Support use the Contact Us link on
http://www.mathworks.com

On Jan 5, 5:40 pm, Rune Allnor <all...@tele.ntnu.no> wrote:
> Just a heads-up / warning for the regulars who answer
> questions and provide other help here:
>
> The Norwegian Ministry of Education is abut to test
> examinations where students have access to internet:
>
> http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Skeptiske-til--bruke-Internet...
>
> (Haven't found an English version yet; no doubt some will
> pop up as soon the international news stations pick up on
> this lunacy.)
>
> As for now, there is a non-vanishing chance that there
> might pop up questions from students who need answers
> not for homework or projects, but for exams. The idea
> is insane enough to actually spread to other parts of
> the world, so beware; the answers you give here might
> be what get your next colleague his or her diploma...
>
> Rune

Rune, et al,

As one who teaches 1st year physics, I've already seen a lot of modes
of cheating. The kids will scan every prior question from the
homework, quizes and tests and what I worked out on the board (they
take pics with their camera phones) and have them in their smart
phones. This is certainly way more advanced for of cheating than
writing stuff on their wrists and feigning a need to go to the
restroom where they have strategically placed papers in the bathroom
trash can. And using cellphone jammers is illegal, so we can't use
that to block access to the internet. Even prisons can't get
permission to jam cellphones.

I find it kind of fun devising questions to force them to actually
think as opposed to regurgitating results. Sometimes when I make up
questions, I key it into google and adjust my wording so google's
results won't take you straight to the answer.

I recall one time teaching some kids scientific notation and they
lazily would put everything into their calculators and never learn how
to do the actual calculations. A few problems with 4 digit exponents
(too big for their TI-83 calculators) taught them what they really
needed to learn.

Today we have a problem (certainly here in the US - can't much speak
for elsewhere) where education is structured to spoon feed the
students and they end up not knowing how to do things for themselves -
it is really sad.

I find it fun to read my student's evaluations of me as they run the
typical gamut. One student strongly complained of my grading the
homework on accuracy! And sadly many of the comments aren't even
grammatically correct and yet these students are usually liberal arts
majors.

Clay

On Fri, 6 Jan 2012 08:26:14 -0800 (PST), Clay <clay@claysturner.com>
wrote:

>On Jan 5, 5:40=A0pm, Rune Allnor <all...@tele.ntnu.no> wrote:
>> Just a heads-up / warning for the regulars who answer
>> questions and provide other help here:
>>
>> The Norwegian Ministry of Education is abut to test
>> examinations where students have access to internet:
>>
>> http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Skeptiske-til--bruke-Internet...
>>
>> (Haven't found an English version yet; no doubt some will
>> pop up as soon the international news stations pick up on
>> this lunacy.)
>>
>> As for now, there is a non-vanishing chance that there
>> might pop up questions from students who need answers
>> not for homework or projects, but for exams. The idea
>> is insane enough to actually spread to other parts of
>> the world, so beware; the answers you give here might
>> be what get your next colleague his or her diploma...
>>
>> Rune
>
>Rune, et al,
>
>As one who teaches 1st year physics, I've already seen a lot of modes
>of cheating. The kids will scan every prior question from the
>homework, quizes and tests and what I worked out on the board (they
>take pics with their camera phones) and have them in their smart
>phones. This is certainly way more advanced for of cheating than
>writing stuff on their wrists and feigning a need to go to the
>restroom where they have strategically placed papers in the bathroom
>trash can. And using cellphone jammers is illegal, so we can't use
>that to block access to the internet. Even prisons can't get
>permission to jam cellphones.
>
>I find it kind of fun devising questions to force them to actually
>think as opposed to regurgitating results. Sometimes when I make up
>questions, I key it into google and adjust my wording so google's
>results won't take you straight to the answer.
>
>I recall one time teaching some kids scientific notation and they
>lazily would put everything into their calculators and never learn how
>to do the actual calculations. A few problems with 4 digit exponents
>(too big for their TI-83 calculators) taught them what they really
>needed to learn.
>
>Today we have a problem (certainly here in the US - can't much speak
>for elsewhere) where education is structured to spoon feed the
>students and they end up not knowing how to do things for themselves -
>it is really sad.
>
>I find it fun to read my student's evaluations of me as they run the
>typical gamut. One student strongly complained of my grading the
>homework on accuracy! And sadly many of the comments aren't even
>grammatically correct and yet these students are usually liberal arts
>majors.
>
>Clay

Somebody posted this on FB a while back so I snagged it:

http://ericjacobsen.org/pics/Math.jpg


Eric Jacobsen
Anchor Hill Communications
www.anchorhill.com

On 1/5/2012 5:40 PM, Rune Allnor wrote:
> Just a heads-up / warning for the regulars who answer
> questions and provide other help here:
>
> The Norwegian Ministry of Education is abut to test
> examinations where students have access to internet:
>
> http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Skeptiske-til--bruke-Internett-p-eksamen-6734506.html
>
> (Haven't found an English version yet; no doubt some will
> pop up as soon the international news stations pick up on
> this lunacy.)
>
> As for now, there is a non-vanishing chance that there
> might pop up questions from students who need answers
> not for homework or projects, but for exams. The idea
> is insane enough to actually spread to other parts of
> the world, so beware; the answers you give here might
> be what get your next colleague his or her diploma...

I have a small and simple web site on which I have a few recipes and
self-aggrandizing rants. It is now pretty much in disrepair. You can the
public stuff at http://users.rcn.com/jyavins/ , but there's a lot you
can't see. http://users.rcn.com/jyavins/gathering.jpg is one example of
that. It would be easy for me to post pages of facts and formulas if I
had an exam that allowed web access. (So how do you like mt vulture
pictures? One was taken with http://users.rcn.com/jyavins/photoadapter.htm.)

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

On 1/6/2012 12:14 PM, Eric Jacobsen wrote:

   ...

> Somebody posted this on FB a while back so I snagged it:
>
> http://ericjacobsen.org/pics/Math.jpg

Ouch!

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

On Jan 6, 5:58 pm, glen herrmannsfeldt <g...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
>
> I used to wonder about giving questions in different variables
> than the formula in the book. If students understand the concept,
> then letters shouldn't matter.
>

Agreed, but on an exam where there is time pressure,
it always seemed a bit unfair to use new notation just
to test whether they understand the concept. "Let x
denote a random variable with density function f_x(X)"
just muddies the waters.

Dilip Sarwate

P.S. Are the roots of the quadratic equation
ax^2 + bx + c = 0
given by 2c/[-b +/- sqrt(b^2 - 4ac)] ?

Jerry Avins wrote:
> On 1/6/2012 12:14 PM, Eric Jacobsen wrote:
>
> ...
>
>> Somebody posted this on FB a while back so I snagged it:
>>
>> http://ericjacobsen.org/pics/Math.jpg
>
> Ouch!
>
> Jerry

LOL!
Prior to my entering freshman class at Cornell, ALL
engineering students were required to take a surveying
course. The object was to force "pupils" {<> "students"} to
use neither slide rules nor log tables for closures (if they
did closure error would be too large ;)

On 1/6/2012 10:32 PM, Richard Owlett wrote:
> Jerry Avins wrote:
>> On 1/6/2012 12:14 PM, Eric Jacobsen wrote:
>>
>> ...
>>
>>> Somebody posted this on FB a while back so I snagged it:
>>>
>>> http://ericjacobsen.org/pics/Math.jpg
>>
>> Ouch!
>>
>> Jerry
>
> LOL!
> Prior to my entering freshman class at Cornell, ALL engineering students
> were required to take a surveying course. The object was to force
> "pupils" {<> "students"} to use neither slide rules nor log tables for
> closures (if they did closure error would be too large ;)

You never saw a 10-foot slide rule! :-) (Or a Curta:
http://www.vcalc.net/cu.htm)

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Jerry Avins wrote:
> On 1/6/2012 10:32 PM, Richard Owlett wrote:
>> Jerry Avins wrote:
>>> On 1/6/2012 12:14 PM, Eric Jacobsen wrote:
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> Somebody posted this on FB a while back so I snagged it:
>>>>
>>>> http://ericjacobsen.org/pics/Math.jpg
>>>
>>> Ouch!
>>>
>>> Jerry
>>
>> LOL!
>> Prior to my entering freshman class at Cornell, ALL engineering students
>> were required to take a surveying course. The object was to force
>> "pupils" {<> "students"} to use neither slide rules nor log tables for
>> closures (if they did closure error would be too large ;)
>
> You never saw a 10-foot slide rule! :-)
Snicker. All the one I saw over lecture hall blackboards
were Posts (IIRC).
I'd have much more faith in readability/precision of my K&E
slapping at my hip ;)
[P.S. How many youngsters recognize K&E? ;>!


> (Or a Curta: http://www.vcalc.net/cu.htm)

Never saw one of those. Suspect would have been as common as
an "Analytical Engine" in '61.


>
> Jerry